clutchless

I mentioned earlier that I felt the best way to go would be clutchless.

If I can go sepex, I think that I would like to keep the vehicle in one gear. If I do that then I will be able to get rid of the clutch.

Quote from ev album:

http://www.evalbum.com/727

Made an adapter from 2" bar stock and the splined hub that was originally in the clutch disk. So the motor is attached directly through the adapter to the transaxle. Also added a pilot brass bushing in the center of the motor shaft to accomodate the tail end of the trans shaft.

Sounds like a good place to find the splined hub.

I think that I would prefer a flexible coupling between the motor and gearbox shafts.


these guys make adapters
http://canev.com/KitsComp/Components/S10AdpKit.html

I think that this shows that you can still use the clutch plate to get some flexibility in a clutchless system.

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.northrim.net/wyanders/ev/0108s.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.northrim.net/wyanders/ev/motorinstall.html&h=187&w=250&sz=10&hl=en&start=19&usg=__0V4LFlJr6w8boxVxI7TgR0nBCUQ=&tbnid=t4PiB7PpBgHhbM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dclutchless%2Bev%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG


This is a good video of clutchless

http://www.evforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=570

These guys use a clutch in their kits
http://www.electroauto.com/info/parts.shtml

here is a good discussion - seems a good idea to keep the clutch

http://groups.google.com/group/civic-ev-kit/browse_thread/thread/4e5acb932c92f43f

bigger sepex from "alpha motors"

seems I can get a bigger sepex from "alpha motors" on ebay. Not much info so far but the motor is bigger (57kg) and supposedly rated to 120V 250A.

first problems is that it may not fit:
FRAME DIAMETER IS 8" X 18.1" L. (203x459mm)

I have just crawled under a mazda 121 and the distance from where the bell housing bolts onto the transfer case to the end of the second accessory drive pulley is about 490mm.

That would mean that if the electric motor frame could bolt up to say an 8mm adaptor plate that bolted onto where the bell housing would normally go then I should have enough space (maybe not for the accessory drive pulleys for ac and ps).

I still have to understand the clutch arrangement.

If I use this motor then i will just connect to the gearbox without a clutch as i will leave it in the most suitable gear (advantage of sepex).

sepex problem distilled

I think that this post distills the sepex issue well. Inspires me to keep trying with the two sepexs

from:

http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg06741.html

--- Begin Message ---

On 7/31/06, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 30 Jul 2006 at 21:22, Michaela Merz wrote:

> There are quite a few disadvantages with the available DC
> technology, regen braking, overspeeding of motors without load, full power on
> failures of controllers, just to name a few.

Ah, but the first two of these limitations are not characteristic of
seperately excited DC motors.  They are limitations of the series-wound
forklift motors that most DCers run >because they are relatively cheap and
readily available<.

Exactly.  Most production EVs in Europe have a very nice Sepex drive,
using a Sagem controller and Leroy-Somer motor.  As a package, it has
none of the disadvantages mentioned above, and it's single ratio as
well.  In fact, I'd challenge any AC car to regen to an absolute stop
as well as my sepex one does!

The problem is that there are few readily available sep-ex motors and
controllers suited to road EVs. I don't see this changing any time soon - in
fact with the adoption of AC induction motors in forklifts, it seems more
likely that those drives will fall to the price range that hobbyist EVers
are willing to pay before sep-ex drives do.

Probably true.   However I'm sure that anyone who really wanted could
take an ADC or similar old fashioned DC motor, have the field rewound
and make a really powerful sep-ex system out of a Zilla and a seperate
PWM field controller.

--- End Message ---

I think that I have decided....

I was ready to decide that regen and sepex were too hard. Looking at the prices of a series motor and controller however, it seems that it would actually be cheaper to buy two D&D motors and two sevcon powerpak controllers.

I will try to figure out how I can put one motor geared directly to each front driveshaft.

Challenges seem to be:

1. How to get the two controllers to speak to each other.
2. What are the motor curves for the motor?
3. How do I do the gearing - toothed belt would be nice but motorbike chain may be more realistic and easier to adjust.
4. how do I mount the shaft with the gear on to the driveshaft?
5. how do I mount a gear onto the motor drive shaft?
6. what is the appropriate fixed gearing?

sourcing controller

here is the page from the manufacturer

http://www.clevelandelectronicservices.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=64

I can get the controller from thunderstruck ev in the us for US$625 + shipping

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/controllers.htm

or from cleveland electric in australia (need to enquire about price)

http://www.clevelandelectronicservices.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=64

sourcing motors

I can get the controller from thunderstruck ev in the us for US$650 or US$750 + shipping

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ddmotor.htm

regen with series?

maybe possible with zapi controller

http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/ZAPI_H2

if that is really possible then that would be nice as I could use the transwarp motor

from the zapi webpage

http://www.zapiweb.com/details.php?lang=eng&prod=5&type=&id=

or from the ev album page - they mention that regen works

http://www.evalbum.com/ctroller


But this is the solution...

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8848

If I can expect about 10% increase in range, my thoughts that it would be worth using the sierra, 2 drive motors just to get regen seems a little ridiculous. It also suggests that thought regen with series is possible, it is not really worth it.

bigger sepex?

D&D got back to me to let me know that they could not supply a sepex big enough for the mazda.

after a brief flirtation with the idea that I could put 2 of their motors in the suzuki sierra, I think that we should stick with the 121 and figure out how to put a regen motor in it.

I found that zapi make a more powerful sepex controller (12kw)

http://www.zapiweb.com/details.php?lang=eng&prod=18&type=Technology&id=4

I still cannot find a bigger sepex motor.

pm motors?

http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=43

this guy is using one

http://www.evalbum.com/1529

This seems all a bit too good to be true

here are the curves

http://www.agnimotors.com/143-47rpm84v.pdf

the website states:

The maximum continuous current varies from about 80 amps at 12 volts to 160 amps at 60 volts; the limiting factor is the flow of cooling air through the motor and the continuous current at low voltages may be increased if ventilation is good.

Does that mean at 84V the continous current would be greater than 160A.

If it stays the same, then the curves suggest that 160A gives about 12kw and 30Nm which should be adequate for the car to go 72km/hr.

the bloke on the ev album suggests that his 96 turn motor can do 200A continouse and 400A for 30 sec.

Sounds like one motor would work?

batteries

if 72 v system - seems I will need about 100ah

I should check out these links about LiPo

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=342&PID=2170

seems that LiPo would cost me $4000-5000


http://www.waeva.asn.au/batrun_tutorial.htm


from the spreadsheets - 15kWhr/ 100km seems to be what I would need.

this seems a bit strange as it is independant of vehicle speed.



quote from th thread above

As a general rule, work on 150-180 Wh/km for a light EV.

so for a 72V pack of 100ahr, I would get 48km if the batteries worked perfectly.

here is a sample calc

45 x 3.2v x 90Ahr Thundersky x 70% DOD x 1500 cycles = 13608Kw of power
If a battery pack costs $8000 that is a cost of $0.60 per Kwh
If my car gets 200wh/km that is a cost of 12c per km.


MY VERSION
25 x 3.2v x 90Ahr Thundersky x 70% DOD x 1500 cycles = 7560Kw of power
If a battery pack costs $4444
If my car gets 150wh/km that is range of 50km


also look at this site

http://www.evconvert.com/

the Aeva site has an entire forum on batteries

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_topics.asp?FID=17

here is a link to the greensaver batteries that are talked about a lot.

http://www.greensaver-gst.com/product.php

AGM

AGM options - sounds like from the electric echo blog that I should wait a couple of years for Lithium polymer batteries. With a bit of looking, I should be able to get away with about $2000 for the battery pack. This should last me 2-3 years. Then the appropriate direction for Lithium may be clearer.

Remco AGM RM12-100

110Ahr or 100Ahr (1hr - ????) $355

sources

http://www.solaronline.com.au/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107143916&product_id=1107358630

spec sheet

Fullriver

110Ahr (1hr - 60Ahr) - $305

spec sheet

http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/DC110-12B.pdf

sources

http://allpurposebatteries.com.au/shop/product_info.php?products_id=267&osCsid=d9b0f94e064ff2fb19e9079145417db6

http://www.fridge-and-solar.net/agm.htm

BB batteries

This is the mob that thunderstruck ev suggest

http://www.bb-battery.com/productseb.asp

odyssey batteries

odyssey batteries - way too expensive

http://www.extremebatteries.com.au/pdf/ODYSSEY%20Specs.pdf

diamec

40Ahr (1hr - 24Ahr) $100

This looks a pretty good bet! - maybe 18 * 40Ahr Makes the wiring a little easier as the two packs in the back would be in parallel to the pack in the front. Then I can add more range easily (maybe in boot) by adding another 6 batteries.

Are there problems with paralleling batteries?

http://www.soanarecotech.com/products/?group=P19

Same batteries here:
http://www.electusdistribution.com.au/productView.asp?ID=6560&CATID=18&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&SUBCATID=190

I have found that these two batteries discussed are diamec batteries - here is a spec sheet

http://www.semicom.gr/UserFiles/Specifications%20and%20Technical%20data(3).pdf

deka

The honda civic ev mob suggested deka batteres

here is their discussion
http://groups.google.com/group/civic-ev-kit/browse_thread/thread/4e5acb932c92f43f

here is where you buy them in australia - seems expensive

http://allpurposebatteries.com.au/shop/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=139&osCsid=5c74a240dad09a423732f68785581ac0

absorbed power

100Ahr (1hr - 64Ahr) $430

These were listed in the waeva spreadsheet - seem to have pretty good info

http://www.bcaaust.com.au/batteries.html

here they have some prices
http://www.agmsaustralia.com/agms/products/12volt/

Lifeline Batteries

http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/store.php?crn=230&rn=546&action=show_detail

Haze

6 of these? (probably not okay as they are Gel not AGM)

http://www.energymatters.com.au/haze-gel-deep-cycle-battery-12volt-100ah-n70-p-111.html?zenid=6e390defcf742955b0be1a9f78f7ba1b

other comments

have a look at the comment on here about types of batteres

http://a4x4kiwi.blogspot.com/2008/04/greensaver-silicon-batteries.html



Comment on AEVA that you should not discharge to 80% too often

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=301

Also don't count on discharging to 80%DOD everyday, your pack will have a very short life if you do, (280 cycles) Its best to size your pack so your not discharging below 50%DOD on a daily basis when using lead acid. You also have to take into account loss of capacity due to cold weather (i cant remember how cold it gets in SA).



waeva spreadsheet

here is the link to the spreadsheet
http://www.waeva.asn.au/batrun_tutorial.htm

adapters

Big challenge will be the adapter

I tried to order a CD from this bloke - we will see what happens when he realises I am in Australia

www.grassrootsev.com

bigger sepex?

Have a look at this guy - he may get more stuff on with time

http://www.hitorqueelectric.com/

same guy talking about using forklift motor

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/using-forklift-motor-and-choosing-good-7598.html

while I was looking, I found this comparision of motors

http://www.zev.dk/misc/torque-curves.gif